East and South Asia trade talks

[Galveston Bay]

Building on the relative success of the treaty of Gouda which cleared the air between the Netherlands and France, the French Crown invites the English, Irish, Spanish, Danes, Swedes, Turks, and Portuguese as well as the Dutch to talks to be held at Lorient. The agenda is to discuss China trade, as well as clearly spell out spheres of influence and future sites for colonies in the Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean areas.

Also on the agenda is the area of New Holland, which has been somewhat charted on its northern, southern and western coastlines, as well as the New Hebrides. All have previously been noted by Spanish, Dutch, and English sailors. France also proposes that this land be called formerly "Australia" (southern land).

Talks are scheduled to begin after Easter in 1726.

[Lefty]

The Polish ambassador in Paris, overhearing word of trade talks, requests an invitation.

[Haven]

It was the Dutch understanding that the Treaty of Gouda settled any questions in the Indian Ocean, particularly in regards to India. As such, it seems odd that the French would like to suddenly open up this region as a topic of negotiation again when they were the ones to originally propose Gouda. Similarly for the East Indies and Indochina. Any potential points of discussion in India between the Netherlands and the Ottomans, or the Danish, are bilateral issues that can and will be handled independently. Though it is noted that no issue has arrived, and Dutch-Ottoman relations in particular have been amicable in India.

To the extent the French wish to discuss matters in China, the eastern seaboard of Africa, islands further out into the Pacific, or potentially New Holland, the Netherlands is open to discussion. Though it is worth pointing out much of that area seems to already be under the influence of one party or another invited to these talks (Ottomans in much of Africa, French in OTL Mozambique, Dutch in OTL Madagascar etc.).

The presence of the Poles at the negotiating table, if there is one, is welcomed.

[Hussam B.]

The Spanish government will send an envoy to hear the French out, but note the points raised by the Dutch.

Seeing as the French are pursuing some form of diplomatic dialogue with the Wittlesbach, it is suggested that a public clarification about the issues of Navarra, Perpignon, and the Peace of Poitiers will help in crystallizing where do the two crowns stand and what will the appropriate discourse will be.

Condolences are given for the passage of the Queen Mother, a Wittlesbach by birth herself, the loss of such a distinguished shared kin is painful and felt by both the Emperor and the King of Spain.

[Galveston Bay]

The French respond to the Dutch query by pointing out that much of northeast Asia could be open for trade eventually, and while Franco-Dutch matters seem settled, at least as far as the Indian Ocean is concerned, there are indeed matters to discuss regarding other areas such as Australia, the islands to the east of the Moloccas etc.

Spain is given polite non committal responses other than there is still peace and questions why Spain is seeking to broaden the discussion.

[Hussam B.]

With so little diplomatic discourse occurring between Spain and France, it merely seemed opportune to make the most of this meeting, but if the French wish to limit it to polite non-committal responses then the Spanish delegates can oblige and reply with the same.

[TLS]

Portugal refuses to acquiesce to broad negotiations with the Dutch or the Poles, who have demonstrated themselves to clearly be self-serving brigands and upstarts. The Netherlands have muscled their way into domination of the Indian subcontinent and most of the Indian Ocean trade, by hook and by crook, and are fundamentally rapacious scoundrels, while the Poles have almost entirely discharged their colonial ventures and holdings, leaving them to the frozen tundra that is their meager birthright.

[Lefty]

The Polish ambassador notes that Polish domains are larger and at least as relevant as that of the Scandinavian kingdoms and thus it is only right to be party to any negotiations, if they happen.

The drivel originating from the Lusitanians is ignored.

[Haneastic]

The Irish see the benefit of a clear delineation of future colonial claims and indicate a willingness to attend the talks.

[Kilani]

The Commonwealth has little interest in delineating claims just yet, but will listen.

[Haven]

The French respond to the Dutch query by pointing out that much of northeast Asia could be open for trade eventually, and while Franco-Dutch matters seem settled, at least as far as the Indian Ocean is concerned, there are indeed matters to discuss regarding other areas such as Australia, the islands to the east of the Moloccas etc.  

Spain is given polite non committal responses other than there is still peace and questions why Spain is seeking to broaden the discussion.  

The Netherlands would be willing to entertain discussions regarding northeast Asia, Australia or the farther out islands.

[Galveston Bay]

As Spring comes, the talks in Lorient finally get started. However with the Turks at war with the Austrians and the Empire, which presumably (although this is a bit unclear) Spain, France makes a point to house the Turks with extra security nearby and should the Spanish appear (this too is unclear), special precautions will be taken for their protection as well.

French diplomats immediately begin quiet discussions with the Danes and Portuguese as they arrive.

[Galveston Bay]

France suggests as an opening agreement, that all nations agree to rescue each others sailors and return them home or friendly ports whenever they are found to be in distress.

Secondly, that mutual defense be practiced against local forces that attack Europeans (and Turks are considered Europeans for this purpose) by local pirates, bandits or rioters.

That all nations agree not to attempt to undermine each other in trade with China.

[Haven]

France suggests as an opening agreement, that all nations agree to rescue each others sailors and return them home or friendly ports whenever they are found to be in distress.

Secondly, that mutual defense be practiced against local forces that attack Europeans (and Turks are considered Europeans for this purpose) by local pirates, bandits or rioters.  

That all nations agree not to attempt to undermine each other in trade with China.  

All of these measures are agreeable to the Netherlands. As an additional agreement, the Netherlands suggests that all nations agree to combat smuggling in the region and to hand over smugglers to the nation from which they have smuggled goods.

[Galveston Bay]

France suggests as an opening agreement, that all nations agree to rescue each others sailors and return them home or friendly ports whenever they are found to be in distress.

Secondly, that mutual defense be practiced against local forces that attack Europeans (and Turks are considered Europeans for this purpose) by local pirates, bandits or rioters.  

That all nations agree not to attempt to undermine each other in trade with China.  

All of these measures are agreeable to the Netherlands. As an additional agreement, the Netherlands suggests that all nations agree to combat smuggling in the region and to hand over smugglers to the nation from which they have smuggled goods.

France has no disagreement with that proposal, although only if it is limited to handing them over to one of the treaty powers. (OOC not some local prince or power)

[Haven]

France suggests as an opening agreement, that all nations agree to rescue each others sailors and return them home or friendly ports whenever they are found to be in distress.

Secondly, that mutual defense be practiced against local forces that attack Europeans (and Turks are considered Europeans for this purpose) by local pirates, bandits or rioters.  

That all nations agree not to attempt to undermine each other in trade with China.  

All of these measures are agreeable to the Netherlands. As an additional agreement, the Netherlands suggests that all nations agree to combat smuggling in the region and to hand over smugglers to the nation from which they have smuggled goods.

France has no disagreement with that proposal, although only if it is limited to handing them over to one of the treaty powers.  (OOC not some local prince or power)

That clarification is agreed to.

In regard to China, is France merely proposing a policy of non-interference in each treaty power's China trade, or perhaps some form of cooperation to expand the China trade?

[Galveston Bay]

France suggests as an opening agreement, that all nations agree to rescue each others sailors and return them home or friendly ports whenever they are found to be in distress.

Secondly, that mutual defense be practiced against local forces that attack Europeans (and Turks are considered Europeans for this purpose) by local pirates, bandits or rioters.  

That all nations agree not to attempt to undermine each other in trade with China.  

All of these measures are agreeable to the Netherlands. As an additional agreement, the Netherlands suggests that all nations agree to combat smuggling in the region and to hand over smugglers to the nation from which they have smuggled goods.

France has no disagreement with that proposal, although only if it is limited to handing them over to one of the treaty powers.  (OOC not some local prince or power)

That clarification is agreed to.

In regard to China, is France merely proposing a policy of non-interference in each treaty power's China trade, or perhaps some form of cooperation to expand the China trade?

With the attitude of the Chinese Dynasty, expansion seems unlikely at this time, but most definitely an agreement not to interfere with each others Chinese trade

[TLS]

Sweden, as a state with no strategic presence in the Indian Ocean or the Orient, is content to support any policies which will aid and abet freer trade among the Europeans. Gaining access to China would be particularly lucrative, but for now Sweden merely wishes to ensure that its trading concerns can gain shelter and access to as many ports as possible.

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Denmark, on the other hand, is one of the last non-Dutch powers with holdings in India, and is adamant that spheres of influence in India be more clearly defined. The Kingdom of Denmark is not particularly interested in a massive expansion of political or military control on the subcontinent, but is concerned about the risk of the Netherlands unleashing unprompted aggression against its holdings--something the Dutch have repeatedly demonstrated over the last two decades.

[Lefty]

Sweden, as a state with no strategic presence in the Indian Ocean or the Orient, is content to support any policies which will aid and abet freer trade among the Europeans. Gaining access to China would be particularly lucrative, but for now Sweden merely wishes to ensure that its trading concerns can gain shelter and access to as many ports as possible.

-----------

Denmark, on the other hand, is one of the last non-Dutch powers with holdings in India, and is adamant that spheres of influence in India be more clearly defined. The Kingdom of Denmark is not particularly interested in a massive expansion of political or military control on the subcontinent, but is concerned about the risk of the Netherlands unleashing unprompted aggression against its holdings--something the Dutch have repeatedly demonstrated over the last two decades.

The Polish ambassador (who managed to wile his way in discussing news of the war with the Swedish ambassador) echoes the sentiments of his Scandinavian colleague in discussions, but overall just seems pleased to be involved.

[Haneastic]

Ireland accepts the French proposals. They indicate willingness to assist in the definition of spheres of influence in India, provided that Ireland be allowed to stake out other areas in the Pacific in the long run should they wish.

[Haven]

Sweden, as a state with no strategic presence in the Indian Ocean or the Orient, is content to support any policies which will aid and abet freer trade among the Europeans. Gaining access to China would be particularly lucrative, but for now Sweden merely wishes to ensure that its trading concerns can gain shelter and access to as many ports as possible.

-----------

Denmark, on the other hand, is one of the last non-Dutch powers with holdings in India, and is adamant that spheres of influence in India be more clearly defined. The Kingdom of Denmark is not particularly interested in a massive expansion of political or military control on the subcontinent, but is concerned about the risk of the Netherlands unleashing unprompted aggression against its holdings--something the Dutch have repeatedly demonstrated over the last two decades.

The Netherlands is not willing to see India brought up as a general topic of discussion, or the further opening of Dutch controlled ports to European trading ships (as it stands, what non-Dutch European ships that are allowed to call on Dutch ports are limited to Batavia and Ceylon, and even then its limited. E.g. some French ships can call on Batavia every year for pepper). The Spanish empire and its generally closed ports in the Americas are pointed to as an example.

As for India, the Netherlands would be willing to recognize the existing Danish presence in the south and guarantee not to begin hostilities in India with Denmark, or interfere with existing Danish trade and ties. The Netherlands is not interested in further discussing spheres of influence in India otherwise, or the opening up further of the India trade. In Dutch eyes India is not a concern to the other parties, who have mostly left India by choice, excepting the Ottomans in the northwest.

[Galveston Bay]

France finds it encouraging that the Dutch will not interfere with Danish trade in India. Indeed France did pull out of India by choice to focus energy elsewhere.

However, the Danish concern is genuine, and a formal commitment by the powers in India now not to interfere with each others spheres of influence would seem reasonable.

[Haven]

France finds it encouraging that the Dutch will not interfere with Danish trade in India.    Indeed France did pull out of India by choice to focus energy elsewhere.  

However, the Danish concern is genuine, and a formal commitment by the powers in India now not to interfere with each others spheres of influence would seem reasonable.  

A formal commitment not to interfere with the existing spheres of influence in India is something the Netherlands can agree to.

[Hussam B.]

Following French expressed outrage and dressing down of Spanish diplomatic envoys, all diplomatic delegations are withdrawn in response, for consultation.

[Galveston Bay]

Treaty of Lorient 1727
After several months of discussion, including breaks for holidays and for communications from home to come and go, a provisional treaty is presented for signing.

Mariners and Sailors provision
Signatory nations agree to provide rescue and repatriation of each others mariners and passengers for ships in distress or lost at sea, including people found marooned on islands or in unfriendly native hands.

Mutual Protection provision
Signatory nations agree to protect each others nationals, including rescuing them, from unfriendly natives who lack the tradition of mercy.  

Spheres of influence in India provision
The Netherlands, Denmark and the Ottoman Empire agree to respect each others spheres of influence in India.  

China Trade agreement
Signatory nations agree to not interfere with each others trade with China

Smuggling provision
All signatory nations agree to combat smugglers and hand guilty parties over to the signatory nation which has been affected by that.

Further discussions regarding future division of territory, claims and the like are postponed until a better understanding of the Pacific as well as the southern continent currently called New Holland are known.

France signs the treaty and urges the other nations with representatives present to do the same

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