Le Havre Conference 1702
+4
Hussam B.
Lefty
Reddawn
Galveston Bay
8 posters
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Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
Poland has no control over Imperial matters, either through the King of Saxony or the Margrave of Brandenburg. The Elector of Saxony takes his role as an elector of a Protestant seat seriously, which is why he defended the right of Brandenburg even after the brief war.
The issue of Prussia and the Electors are unrelated, but perhaps an arrangement could be made placing Prussia under Polish domain. Poland offers to conduct the repairs of Stettin and make the purchase of Stettin on behalf of Brandenburg in exchange. This would remove any perceived conflicts of interest.
The issue of Prussia and the Electors are unrelated, but perhaps an arrangement could be made placing Prussia under Polish domain. Poland offers to conduct the repairs of Stettin and make the purchase of Stettin on behalf of Brandenburg in exchange. This would remove any perceived conflicts of interest.
Lefty- Posts : 309
Join date : 2017-09-23
Age : 35
Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
The Habsburgs delegation becomes notably discomforted by the idea of the English or French dictating changes to terms agreed to amongst now alligned Electors. The Habsburgs note that they stand with the Elector of Brandenburg on these issues and ask the Brandenburgian delegation to make their position known.
Childeric- Posts : 24
Join date : 2017-09-23
Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
The Commonwealth hardly thinks such a position would be fair or equitable, considering that Brandenburg was dragged into the war simply for not allowing itself to be a highway for foreign troops. And while the Commonwealth has no wish to reopen the Wars of Religion, as they have repeatedly emphasized, placing a majority Lutheran nation under the domination of the majority Catholic Poland does not sit will with the Commonwealth; thus they maintain their objection to the second clause of the Treaty of Brussels.
Kilani- Posts : 352
Join date : 2017-09-23
Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
Childeric wrote:The Habsburgs delegation becomes notably discomforted by the idea of the English or French dictating changes to terms agreed to amongst now alligned Electors. The Habsburgs note that they stand with the Elector of Brandenburg on these issues and ask the Brandenburgian delegation to make their position known.
Marshal Boufflers points out that he merely asked a question. Does the question of how the Habsburgs and Weittens having de facto control of 3 of the Electors and almost certain alliance with 2 more bother the Hapsburgs?
Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
The Habsburg delegation admits it, perahps mistakenly, did not interpret the French inquiry as such. The delegates reiterate their interest in hearing from the Brandenburgians where there own affairs are concerned.
Childeric- Posts : 24
Join date : 2017-09-23
Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
The Elector of Brandenburg's representatives emphasize that the Elector's forefathers were able to simultaneously be a sovereign Elector in Brandenburg while also serving as a vassal of the King of Poland prior to the Treaty of Westphalia. As Elector, Frederick William considers himself unbound to the wills of Poland, as they are only his sovereign within the Duchy of Prussia.
However, if the issue of his holdings in Prussia are an issue, the Elector is willing to entertain the Polish proposal to buy-out Prussia in return for the transfer of Swedish Pomerania to Brandenburg. The Brandenburgers would require not only purchase of Pomerania and the repair of the port of Stettin to be paid for, but also an entitlement to the income from the port of Konigsberg for the next five years to assist in the rehabilitation of the Elector's army.
The Elector believes that this settlement would address the concerns over Polish-Saxon influence over the Electorate. However, the Elector will not forswear ties with the Polish crown in the same manner that the Swedes have proposed. The Elector is sovereign in his realm, and if he is so inclined to continue with his favorable dispensation towards the Emperor and the King of Poland, it is his right as a signatory to the Treaty of Westphalia to do so.
However, if the issue of his holdings in Prussia are an issue, the Elector is willing to entertain the Polish proposal to buy-out Prussia in return for the transfer of Swedish Pomerania to Brandenburg. The Brandenburgers would require not only purchase of Pomerania and the repair of the port of Stettin to be paid for, but also an entitlement to the income from the port of Konigsberg for the next five years to assist in the rehabilitation of the Elector's army.
The Elector believes that this settlement would address the concerns over Polish-Saxon influence over the Electorate. However, the Elector will not forswear ties with the Polish crown in the same manner that the Swedes have proposed. The Elector is sovereign in his realm, and if he is so inclined to continue with his favorable dispensation towards the Emperor and the King of Poland, it is his right as a signatory to the Treaty of Westphalia to do so.
Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
Szczuka notes that this arrangement would be favorable to Poland, and hopes that Poland’s honorable conduct would give the Elector cause to maintain his favorable disposition.
Lefty- Posts : 309
Join date : 2017-09-23
Age : 35
Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
Denmark concurs with the French and speak to a desire for a truce and prisoner exchange as negotiations continue.
They are sympathetic to the English position and agree that some form of insurance that the Poles will not exert undue influence on an elector of the Holy Roman Empire is appreciated. The exchange of Swedish-Pomerania for Prussia seems like a reasonable proposal assuming the Swedes agree.
They are sympathetic to the English position and agree that some form of insurance that the Poles will not exert undue influence on an elector of the Holy Roman Empire is appreciated. The exchange of Swedish-Pomerania for Prussia seems like a reasonable proposal assuming the Swedes agree.
Rodenka- Posts : 39
Join date : 2017-09-23
Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
The Commonwealth finds the compromise position agreeable and, despite some misgivings, are prepared to support the exchange of the West Pomerania for the territory of Prussia proper.
Kilani- Posts : 352
Join date : 2017-09-23
Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
With agreement by all the relevant parties, the Polish Delegation presents the following terms for approval:
Paris Accords
Section 1
There shall be a firm and perpetual peace between the Commonwealth of England and Scotland, the Kingdom of Denmark-Norway, the Kingdom of Sweden, and the Duchy of Holstein-Gottorp and the Holy Roman Emperor, the Tsardom of Russia, the Electorate of Saxony, the Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania, and the Electorate of Brandenburg. A full and faithful exchange of prisoners, banners, standards, hostages, etc. shall commence within one month of the signing of this Peace.
Section 2
1) The Swedish Crown shall pass to the Charles Frederick I, son of the Duke of Holstein-Gottorp, in return for his renouncing the inheritance of the Duchy. The current Duke shall hold the Duchy until his death, at which point it shall return to the Danish crown.
2) Upon the death of each monarch, the designated successor shall only be crowned after a negotiated settlement between the monarch and the Riksdag, a pacta conventa demonstrating a contract between the nobility and the monarch.
3) In the event that the monarch dies without an heir, the Riksdag shall elect another monarch from the House of Holstein-Gottorp. If no suitable candidate exists, the Riksdag shall then be returned to its ancient prerogative of being able to freely elect a noble from inside or outside the Kingdom to rule.
4) The Swedish crown will cede the provinces of Estonia and Ingria to Russia, and the province of Livonia to Poland. The Baltic nobility shall have their current financial systems, self-governance, customs border, and Lutheran religion guaranteed.
5) The Swedish territory of Bremen shall be transferred to the Kingdom of Denmark.
6) Sweden will declare itself neutral in the affairs of other Scandinavian and Baltic states for a period of no less than 20 years, and thus enter into a non-aggression pact with the nations of: Denmark, Poland, Russia, and Brandenburg.
7) The Riksdag forever banishes the notion of a union of the crowns of Sweden and Denmark, and swears to uphold the independence of Sweden from foreign domination until the last ounce of noble blood is shed.
Sweden swears to renounce any and all claims to be acting on behalf of the Protestant princes and peoples of the Empire.
Section 3
1) The Treaty of Oliva is declared defunct, and Margrave of Brandenburg hereby renounces any claim to the Duchy of Prussia. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth shall entitle the income of the Port of Konigsberg to the Crown of Brandenburg for a total of five years.
2) The Swedish Crown will cede the territory of Swedish Pomerania including the Port of Stettin to the Crown of Brandenburg. Funds shall be provided by the member states of the Coalition to conduct repairs to the Port of Stettin.
3) The Elector shall retain any remaining titles and rights, including status as an elector and the right to choose his religion.
Paris Accords
Section 1
There shall be a firm and perpetual peace between the Commonwealth of England and Scotland, the Kingdom of Denmark-Norway, the Kingdom of Sweden, and the Duchy of Holstein-Gottorp and the Holy Roman Emperor, the Tsardom of Russia, the Electorate of Saxony, the Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania, and the Electorate of Brandenburg. A full and faithful exchange of prisoners, banners, standards, hostages, etc. shall commence within one month of the signing of this Peace.
Section 2
1) The Swedish Crown shall pass to the Charles Frederick I, son of the Duke of Holstein-Gottorp, in return for his renouncing the inheritance of the Duchy. The current Duke shall hold the Duchy until his death, at which point it shall return to the Danish crown.
2) Upon the death of each monarch, the designated successor shall only be crowned after a negotiated settlement between the monarch and the Riksdag, a pacta conventa demonstrating a contract between the nobility and the monarch.
3) In the event that the monarch dies without an heir, the Riksdag shall elect another monarch from the House of Holstein-Gottorp. If no suitable candidate exists, the Riksdag shall then be returned to its ancient prerogative of being able to freely elect a noble from inside or outside the Kingdom to rule.
4) The Swedish crown will cede the provinces of Estonia and Ingria to Russia, and the province of Livonia to Poland. The Baltic nobility shall have their current financial systems, self-governance, customs border, and Lutheran religion guaranteed.
5) The Swedish territory of Bremen shall be transferred to the Kingdom of Denmark.
6) Sweden will declare itself neutral in the affairs of other Scandinavian and Baltic states for a period of no less than 20 years, and thus enter into a non-aggression pact with the nations of: Denmark, Poland, Russia, and Brandenburg.
7) The Riksdag forever banishes the notion of a union of the crowns of Sweden and Denmark, and swears to uphold the independence of Sweden from foreign domination until the last ounce of noble blood is shed.
Sweden swears to renounce any and all claims to be acting on behalf of the Protestant princes and peoples of the Empire.
Section 3
1) The Treaty of Oliva is declared defunct, and Margrave of Brandenburg hereby renounces any claim to the Duchy of Prussia. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth shall entitle the income of the Port of Konigsberg to the Crown of Brandenburg for a total of five years.
2) The Swedish Crown will cede the territory of Swedish Pomerania including the Port of Stettin to the Crown of Brandenburg. Funds shall be provided by the member states of the Coalition to conduct repairs to the Port of Stettin.
3) The Elector shall retain any remaining titles and rights, including status as an elector and the right to choose his religion.
Lefty- Posts : 309
Join date : 2017-09-23
Age : 35
Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
The Swedish and Brandenburger delegations both indicate their acquiescence to the treaty. Additionally, following negotiations they settle on a purchase price of 8 points, over a maximum of 8 years, for the transfer of the territory from Sweden to Brandenburg.
Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
Matveyev accepts these terms on behalf of the Tsar.
A few days later, he receives correspondence from Peter changing his assignment to that of ambassador to England.
A few days later, he receives correspondence from Peter changing his assignment to that of ambassador to England.
Reddawn- Posts : 49
Join date : 2017-09-23
Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
France agrees to Section II without reservations, finds Section I idealistic but will agree that peace is worth attempting, and finds Section III acceptable
Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
The Habsburgs find the proposal agreeable.
Childeric- Posts : 24
Join date : 2017-09-23
Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
The Commonwealth signs on to the treaty.
Kilani- Posts : 352
Join date : 2017-09-23
Re: Le Havre Conference 1702
The Danish delegation will sign in the name of Frederick IV
Rodenka- Posts : 39
Join date : 2017-09-23
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